In The Elements of Law and De Cive he rounds off his attack on these ideas with an argument against the kind of 'eloquence' that propagates them. Leviathan contains a counterpart of this discussion, devoted to the differences between counsel and exhortation (ch. 25, E III 240f). Hobbes 's criticism of what is in effect political rhetoric raises questions about the status of his own treatises on government. Why aren't they open to precisely the criticisms he directed against rhetorical works? The answer depends on an alleged incompatibility between eloquence and wisdom on the one hand, and a supposedly intimate connection between wisdom and science on the other. Pursuing these matters helps to make clear what Hobbes means by 'civil science' and also how he was for a time inclined to view science in general. After running through Hobbes 's objections to seditious ideas and the breeders of sedition, I shall discuss the view of civil science his objections against rhetoric lead up to. It was perhaps his best effort at arriving at a view of science that was timely without being time-bound.